tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6167250939484647451.post8913971835118119873..comments2024-03-18T00:15:32.042-07:00Comments on Cole-Slaw: Critique of the Center Church by Tim Keller [Part 3]Neil Colehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08289317696474966831noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6167250939484647451.post-9895775221346599512014-02-21T19:22:32.950-08:002014-02-21T19:22:32.950-08:00I'm a bit slow, but I get the benefit of readi...I'm a bit slow, but I get the benefit of reading all the comments and maybe getting the last word. :) If I have to choose between two positions, I come down on the side of Neil. One caveat - in the OT God ordains institution, a "schoolmaster" to lead people to Christ and life in the Spirit. I believe the freedom of the Gospel allows us to live BOTH as under the law and as having no external law. It seems Keller's argument for institution is totally pragmatic, not Biblically based. That is a poor foundation for a doctrinal position. It is possible to be institutional for pragmatic reasons as long as you don't insist this is THE way - that crosses the line to a different Gospel.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10518360985137245598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6167250939484647451.post-48406353724826179182013-11-19T10:44:34.001-08:002013-11-19T10:44:34.001-08:00I find it ironic that the same dude who is decryin...I find it ironic that the same dude who is decrying the "institutional" church is the same dude who is "recruiting the very best leaders" for his brand new, "global," "decentralized," "enterprise/initiative," and is currently accepting financial support for it and is submitting it to the temporary leadership of another "venture" until said "enterprise/initiative" gets its feet on the ground. Sounds like the birth of a new institution...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6167250939484647451.post-47746335614427979892013-08-27T10:27:01.348-07:002013-08-27T10:27:01.348-07:00Really excellent critique... helps identify some ...Really excellent critique... helps identify some of the tension I was feeling as I was reading Keller's book.<br /><br />There was lots of good stuff in there, but I still have trouble with his definition of church, i.e. institution.<br /><br />Hmm.Bonniehttp://www.ontheroadtofree.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6167250939484647451.post-74011176729363511272013-08-25T07:33:40.994-07:002013-08-25T07:33:40.994-07:00Denotation / Connotation. What does the word &quo...Denotation / Connotation. What does the word "institution" denote? What does it connote to you? In Genesis, G-d institutes the family. This is His foundation for the (human) world. Is it organic? Yes. Is it an institution? Yes. How do these two forces that are seemingly at odds function together?<br /><br />Consider the human body as a metaphor. The bones provide rigidity and definition. The muscles provide movement and power. They really cannot function without each other.<br /><br />One of the things that defines a local church/body/gathering of believers in more of an "institutional" way is shared beliefs. I am sort of a simple/house/organic zealot, but in one of the s/o/h churches we were a part of, the group could not even agree on basic beliefs or practices. After a few months it disintegrated. Without definition and categories, there is no Truth.<br /><br />Even in the area of just closely held preferences/expression, definition becomes important. Otherwise there is no difference between my OC and "First Community Church" down the block with its own building and choir and everything.<br /><br />But am I all about "institution"? Consider two men. One Just got out of a WWII Concentration Camp. All you can see is bones. The other is a bodybuilder. He's got rippling muscles everywhere. Which one looks healthier? Which one is more robust? Which one is more able to complete a difficult/challenging task? Which one will probably survive a health crisis?<br /><br />Everyone admires the rippling muscles and feats of strength. No one (save a skilled competition judge) notices the skeleton underneath that provides form, stability, etc. And that is as it should be. The underlying institutional aspects of a O/S/HC should be relatively unnoticed, rather than prominent. Yet they are there. My wife and I homeschooled our 4 kids. The youngest is now in college. Homeschooling is (or can be) very organic. Yet there are responsibilities, roles, and tasks that are rooted in the institution of the marriage/family.<br /><br />~Cherry Chip Ice CreamAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6167250939484647451.post-78624554588860162992013-08-09T00:33:10.595-07:002013-08-09T00:33:10.595-07:00This is cool!This is cool!Alyciahttp://besttreadmillforhomes.us/2013/08/08/the-proper-treadmill-exercise/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6167250939484647451.post-12044600671042861942013-07-09T13:07:26.758-07:002013-07-09T13:07:26.758-07:00Neil,
I have been thinking a lot about this over...Neil, <br /><br />I have been thinking a lot about this over the years. I was at GGBTS in the late 90s and met you then at a church planting party that Linda Bergquist put on. Andrew Jones and Jonathan Campbell were there that night. Your take on Organic Church was thrilling to me and I was sold. I was ready to forgo any type of full-time ministry and do organic church and help facilitate movements. It all made so much sense and seemed so biblical. It still does.<br /><br />As time has gone on, however, I have come to appreciate institutions if they are flexible and serve the mission of God instead of the other way around. I think that it can happen. I ended up staying in vocational ministry because God would not let me leave. But, I have actually felt bad about it at times thinking that what I was doing was not as pure as what you and others in the organic church movement were doing. But, I am starting to see things differently in that I see value and purpose in having something where people can work together on a larger scale and where they can tell the gospel story from. Is it required? No. We only need the Holy Spirit and the Gospel. But, we are social creations. Institutions are a part of every aspect of life. Developing something that has some stability, whether it is your family, your vocation, your marriage, or civic institutions has great value. My concern with completely stepping away from institutions that serve the mission is that it is difficult for people to find a place to connect that is bigger than what they feel like doing in the moment.<br /><br />A case could be made that even the Organic movement has forms of institutionalism - that you and your teaching ministry and books and even this blog are a structure that people gather around. The homes and coffee shops that people meet in give support. The teachings and ways of discipleship have a certain form to them that enable things to carry on. Perhaps we are talking about a matter of degree here instead of simply one way or another. I fully believe that whatever structure you have should serve the Gospel and Mission and should not exist for itself. But, some level of organization is needed that can help serve and perpetuate gospel movement - don't you think?Alan Crosshttp://downshoredrift.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6167250939484647451.post-50182809997723275222013-06-14T10:28:18.002-07:002013-06-14T10:28:18.002-07:00Everything is institutional, whether the home or a...Everything is institutional, whether the home or a large company. Love has nothing to do with institutionalism or non-institutionalism (which is non existant), so a large institution can be filled with gospel realities and a small (family) institution can be totally legalistic. <br /><br />I'm sure that you agree with this, but I feel that the argument here has confused social structures in general with the fruit of the Spirit, which is not bound by any structure. Davenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6167250939484647451.post-17211166698875869632013-06-09T18:41:45.667-07:002013-06-09T18:41:45.667-07:00Great perspective! Mutual correction is what the ...Great perspective! Mutual correction is what the Body of Christ stands in need of at all times. This is the activity that keeps the Church on the road. Unfortunately, it is the nature of man to try and "protect" particular views, not promote Christ and trust His driving. Denominationalism is a perfect example of this activity in action. We are to "trust in the Lord" not lean on our own understanding. The result will be liberty, not institutionalism. :)Doughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02307545059751759647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6167250939484647451.post-65259352391679837222013-06-08T06:47:09.204-07:002013-06-08T06:47:09.204-07:00I like Keller's books, but also appreciate you...I like Keller's books, but also appreciate your wise critique of his eccelesiology. There are too many problems in both camps, and we need to continue to seek mature balance. I think you do that here. Thanks. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02058411694767205043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6167250939484647451.post-17340536613538551332013-06-07T18:07:11.789-07:002013-06-07T18:07:11.789-07:00The the anonymous commenter above that said, "...The the anonymous commenter above that said, "they utilized the institution of church as a launching ground," I would humbly disagree. The tabernacle, temples, and even synagogues can simply not be referred to as "the institution of church." New Testament Ekklesia is diametrically opposed to those systems by necessity. For example: The priesthood of the specific few was replaced by the priesthood of all believers. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00127896491196953382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6167250939484647451.post-91806061469757166602013-06-07T17:58:24.799-07:002013-06-07T17:58:24.799-07:00On discipline I have one other insight. It appears...On discipline I have one other insight. It appears that even elders are subject to discipline from people in the church family (1 Tim 5) where Paul writes: "Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses." All of us are to conduct discipline. As individuals it is our loving obligation to restore our siblings, and as a whole community in those cases where personal and 2-3 witnesses is not enough. I have conducted the third step of discipline in 3 very different church expressions: a mega church, a small community church (120) and an organic spiritual household of faith meeting in a home. I have never seen the effectiveness of Matt 18 more than in a small spiritual family where the people in the church came to Christ within that context. When we see church as an institution, those who reject the voice of the institution can simply go a block away and join another. Neil Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08289317696474966831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6167250939484647451.post-59305169354221895132013-06-07T17:38:25.246-07:002013-06-07T17:38:25.246-07:00Hey everyone, thanks for chiming in with great com...Hey everyone, thanks for chiming in with great comments...even the slight at the logo I designed 15 years ago \;o},<br /><br />First, I am not saying that if your church is institutional everyone is legalistic within. In fact I think I said otherwise–particularly about Redeemer Pres. What I am saying is that institution is not the means to produce health, life, love or fruit for a church, and if we put our confidence in institution for such things we are putting our faith in the wrong place. Can it be that love in relationship to God, one another and the world is a better base of our formation and longevity than institutional forms? I hope so.<br /><br />Re. Jesus and Paul's starting with institution. Yes, good observations, but neither saw the institution as a means to spiritual life. Jesus also said that in his generation the temple would be destroyed. It was. He established an entirely new way of relating to God, one another and the world that was far more organic, separate from the temple and the institution of Judaism. In fact, the only people he seemed to speak harshly to/about were the leaders and managers of the institution. So I would not use Jesus as a defense of institutional expressions of ecclesia. <br /><br />Paul started in the synagogues ...for evangelization of the Jews first, but he didn't stay there long and never saw the synagogue as the means of grace or the glue for the church. <br /><br />I do not want to throw out the church or leadership at all...but I also am unwilling to call the mechanistic structures we create the church. The problem is that we do that and it leads people to rather unhealthy conclusions. <br /><br />On church discipline: your understanding of church discipline is subject first to your understanding of church. In the small comment you left, it appears as though you see a worship service as the place where the final step of discipline must occur. I understand why you see it that way, but I assure you that wasn't the context in the NT. It was conducted in a spiritual household of faith, likely not a public event, but an intimate family. So, I do think any believer has a say in such an exercise. You cannot escape the huge quantity of "one another" statements in the NT that are clear–we all have a role to serve in the ongoing health of a body...including discipline.<br /><br />Hey, great discussions. Keep it up!<br /><br />NeilNeil Colehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08289317696474966831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6167250939484647451.post-62222542675843212013-06-07T12:58:58.780-07:002013-06-07T12:58:58.780-07:00One example you gave was from Matt. 18. OK, if so...One example you gave was from Matt. 18. OK, if someone sins than of course anybody in the church can go talk to him about it. And then bring someone with him. But when you get to the level of "telling the church" it seems that the elders should at least know and approve of a church meeting where this is presented and discussed. This is a form of institution, but it is not institutionalism. You have defined "institutionalism" into a dreadful thing, completely devoid of love. Anybody would be against that kind of institution. But if "institution" simply means doing thing "decently and in order" then that is certainly good for the church.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06089265261768216780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6167250939484647451.post-80538647082191832912013-06-07T09:39:14.807-07:002013-06-07T09:39:14.807-07:00Neil,
A couple of things...
1) I love what you&...Neil,<br /><br />A couple of things... <br /><br />1) I love what you're doing and the influence you're having, it's a very good thing in my opinion<br />2) I don't want to defend the institution side of church unduly, but I'm not sure I'm ready to burn it down entirely either.<br /><br />My understanding is that Jesus spoke regularly in temple during His ministry. <br /><br />And my understanding is that Paul started with the Jews, pretty much everywhere he went.<br /><br />If that is true, they both utilized the institution of church as a launching ground, even for the new thing God was doing.<br /><br />Jesus violently defended what He referred to as "his father's house" with whips and righteous anger to return them to the heart of worship... but He didn't suggest they abandon the house entirely.<br /><br />The biggest problem I have with this kind of thing, is that there is an assumption that the church is broken and we need a radical new approach for the Gospel to be at full strength.<br /><br />While I do believe there is a tension between the sideways energy institutions bring (and anyone who's been involved with churches more than 5 minutes has seen this or worse)and the vitality and freedom of God's love in pure form... I have to believe that God knows what He's doing.<br /><br />He's not surprised by where the church has been, where it is now, or where it is going.<br /><br />To say institutional church = not gospel church at it's heart is very close to saying, "God doesn't know what He's doing and the way He has chosen to direct His work on earth is deeply flawed."<br /><br />I can't agree with that wholesale.<br /><br />I don't think that's what you mean and I don't think you would ever say anything like that... but if you're serious about institution always being bad then I don't know where that leaves the church in current expression, all over the world.<br /><br />Maybe it would be worth a clarification or an expounding of this at some point. I don't think it is your intent to put several billion Christians outside of the circle of love in terms of them being "really" engaged in what God is doing in the earth?<br /><br />I agree, we HAVE to love God more than we love the stupid building. We HAVE to pursue the expression of Gospel in life in ways that are nimble and that don't get bogged down in layers and layers of process. We HAVE to stay focused on the eternal and not the tool for the moment.<br /><br />Yet with Keller as a good example... his church isn't a mire of legalism and bad things. Lots of love and lots of light are shining brightly in his ministry and work at Redeemer.<br /><br />There has been a periodic refreshing of what "church" means over the generations, and that cycle will continue. <br /><br />I very much want to separate religion from the gospel in some sense... that's been at the heart of every major revival I'm aware of... but I also want to be careful to not throw the existing church away in the process.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6167250939484647451.post-54986531948132883082013-06-07T08:15:49.649-07:002013-06-07T08:15:49.649-07:00"With 'Institution' comes many games...."With 'Institution' comes many games..."seanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14888494920854829836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6167250939484647451.post-18914563483223749312013-06-07T08:10:08.038-07:002013-06-07T08:10:08.038-07:00Just watched this by Andy Stanley. It's releva...Just watched this by Andy Stanley. It's relevant to shaping the nature of the church. http://t.co/kqU2lCjDvO<br /><br />If Christianity was a game of "Jesus Says" (like "Simon Says") instead of an invitation to follow, to be with Jesus, to let his kindness lead us to repentance, then we'd need to focus more on believing the right things and doing the right things.<br /><br />It's difficult (that's being generous) to affect the condition of our hearts by changing behavior, but the condition of our hearts always effects our behavior. That's a work only being in relationship with Jesus can do. Following him. Durandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03668149965050793130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6167250939484647451.post-28804221361144724972013-06-07T06:15:12.783-07:002013-06-07T06:15:12.783-07:00"Rules, traditions and procedures established..."Rules, traditions and procedures established by tradition and leaders vested with authority will not, and cannot, produce love. Only the Gospel can produce real love."<br /><br />It's an excellent reminder for us as we disciple others to follow Jesus in such a way that others are led to do the same. There's amazing power that comes from being part of a community of people fueled by the power of the Gospel. It's unstoppable.Durandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03668149965050793130noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6167250939484647451.post-74000957816732306582013-06-07T05:54:27.429-07:002013-06-07T05:54:27.429-07:00Neil, I always enjoy reading your posts and books....Neil, I always enjoy reading your posts and books. They have stretched my thinking over the years. I have also enjoyed reading Keller, but I have hesitated to read Center Church since it is doubtful I will agree with his ecclesiology (or care to spend time understanding it).<br /><br />I think I will go ahead and read it on your recommendation... and with some of your comments in mind. Thanks, friend!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6167250939484647451.post-20815327943244695592013-06-06T23:59:47.062-07:002013-06-06T23:59:47.062-07:00Christian institutions are funny, especially when ...Christian institutions are funny, especially when they explain their logo in the "about" section of their website. Because of course "logos" is an important term from the New Testament.<br /><br />http://www.cmaresources.org/about<br /><br />:)<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com